EagleTribune.com : Blogs : The Soapbox

I don't know whether it will be an issue but of course it should be. Tierney's solution for all the nations ills is get rid of George Bush- he's the cause of them all. Tierney doesn' recognize that he's (Tierney) never been the resolution, he's always been part of the problem. The politicians chances for enacting the bill is a lot better now that Tom Tancredo will not be a legislator any longer. The rest of the dunderheads don't know what "illegal" means.

I just finished rereading historian Arthur Schlesinger's (sp?) small, but very important book, "The Disuniting of America".

Written nearly two decades ago, it spells out the very liberal historian's concerns that immigrants were becoming much too resistant to learning English and the possible implications of that for the nation and its ability to truly be "one" nation.

Language, Schlesinger correctly pointed out, is one of the most fundamental ways through which a nation defines itself.

And there is no denying growing resistance on the part of many new immigrants to learn English and make it their primary language is hurting their ability to effectively intergrate into American society and achieve the "American Dream".

When anyone moves to a country other than the country of their birth, they have a duty to learn the language of that country.

I don't care if it's Mexican, Salvadoran, or Brazilian immigrants coming here, or affluent American retirees flocking to live in fortress style, gated communinities in Costa Rica; if you choose to live in another country, you need to learn that country's language. Period.

And Mr. Carlson is absolutely right that people like John Tierney are off base when they try to blame GW, as much as I have no respect for our incompetent Commander in Chief, for all that is wrong with america.

In fact, one of the few decent and intelligent things our bonny Prince has done in his presidency was his advocacy of a truly comprehensive and effective overhaul of our immigration policies. Which are in desperate need of such overhaul.

Unfortunately, extremists, xenophobes, and ignorant nativists who were to the right of our very right wing president, used fear tactics and bigotry to undermine one of the few honorable and intelligent policies GW put forth in his entire tenure as president.

That, in my view, is truly un-American

I agreed with you, Mr. Cook, until you launched into your usual diatribe about George Bush, the extemists, zenophiles,and ignorant nativists.
Of course, if we reward illegal immigrants with a "path to citizenship" that is not shared with those legitimate immigrants who choose to follow the law in entering our country, then it should not be surprising that they resist learning our language.

I am always struck by the people who get most worked up over immigration today are also the ones who seem to forget that immigration has always been a thorny issue in this country.
I heard from my Irish grandparents countless stories about the "Irish Need Not Apply" signs in the textile industry through out the Merrimack Valley
Later iin the 19th century, when the migration pattern shifted to people coming from southern and eastern Europe, earlier northern European immigrants were extremely resentful of the new comers.
And the commonly known, and insulting acronym WOP used to describe Italian immigratnts actually stood for "Without Papers" - translation, illegal!
The debate over immigration and what to do about it is, in many ways as old, as the Republic itself.
Today's debate simply reaffirms for all to see that the old adage, "The more things change, the more they stay the same" is as true today as when it was coined many years ago.
To their great credit men like GW Bush, John McCain, and, yes, Ted Kennedy tried to put their many differences aside to craft an intelligent, respopnsible bill that would address the complexities of our broken immigration system in ways that did not result in vilification and of millions of people, whether they came to this country via the proper channels or not, the vast majority of whom are hard working people simply seeking a better life for themselves and their families.
Unfortunately, as much as you may dislike the terms Mr Carlson, the xenophobes, bigots, and nativists deliberately undermined and derailed the honorable effortss of Bush, McCain, and Kennedy for cheap, short term, political gain with little regard to the damage such actions would do the social fabric of this country.

Happy Monday, All!
Hope everyone survived that little sporting event last evening.... :-(

Let me see if I understand this, Michael....
I support enforcement of our immigration laws through LEGAL immigration channels, therefore I am a xenophobe and a bigot?????? Let me tell you a little story....

My great grandparents, legal immigrants, assimilated into society and literally worked themselves to death in a leather factory to support themselves and their growing family. They taught us the traditions of the "old country" while embracing the opportunities of their new country. They also taught us that hard work and not handouts, is the American way.

Merriam Webster online: "xenophobe":one unduly fearful of what is foreign and especially of people of foreign origin...

Xenophobe?
I beg to differ....

What a farce.

Well done all in the media who have taken up the GOP bullhorn to warn us that our childrens education, our elders retirement and our militarys lives are secondary when compared to the invasion of the subuman hordes from the south.

Yes well done, say it loud and then say it louder becasue these days the the quality of an argument is not as important as its quantity and volume.

I am immigrant, originally an illegal one, but as I have been told more than one, "you are different", so I am accepted. 'No Irish need apply" does not apply anymore. But this is one immgrant who is not for closing the door on his brothers and sisters in need, no matter where they come from. And this is an American who is willing to learn Spanish so that he can continue to fully enjoy what is possibly the greatest experiment in human history the melting pot of the United Stares.

I don't mind immigrants coming here to live and their want of the American dream if its their truest of intention . What I do mind is the attitude that most new comers have is that they are owed every thing once here. I think and feel that they should work for what is offered here and once here that they give up their former country citizenship . [ No more duel citizenship once here] I think its wrong for someone to go back to the old country with social security and other retirement dollars when that same dollar I have buys me less and in most cases they leave here with the least time to get a pension .

Congratulations, Seamus, for breaking our laws and getting away with it.
Is that what you want to hear?

I'm curious as to why you didn't enter the country legally...just couldn't be bothered?

The people who support enforcement of the immigration laws don't care which country the illegals are from. This is a myth generated by the pro-illegal crowd.

I've done a little research on the illegal immigration problem in Ireland, and from what I've read it seems the majority of the irish feel the same way about illegal immigration and amnesty for illegals in Ireland as Americans do in the U.S.

So where do you get off lecturing us?

Hey Seamus,
Thanks for speaking up.
And Mr. birmingham, the greatest number of people bailing on the US with their Social Security checks aren't immigrants who came here for a while to get whatever they could and then go back to the "homeland", they're native born Americans scrambling to get out of here with their SSI and pension checks thinking they can live much better and more economically in places like Panama, Costa Rica, and Mexico.
I know. I have property in Costa Rica and I see it ALL the time. And none of them feel any obligation to learn Spanish, even though most of them are first to say when an immigrant comes to the US he/she MUST learn English.
Can we talk hypocisy, arrogance, and double standards here? here?

Mr Cook, What planet are you from?

The same one you are.
I stand by the assertion about the outward migration of Americans taking their SSI checks and pensions and headingfor foreign shores where they think they can live more cheaply.
No country exemplifies that reality more than Costa Rica.

The Central Valley town of Escazu is so Americanized with expat retirees, it is the only Catholic parish in the country where the Mass is said in English.

The Pacific coast town of Tamarindo is so Americanized Costa Ricans call it "Tamagringo", and many Costa Ricans refer to the Pacific coast as a whole not as Costa Rica anymore, but as Nueva California.

Sio it's not just immigrants who come to America to take the money and run plenty of native born gringos are doing the very same thing.

It's apples and oranges, Michael. As you stated above, American expats are spending their social security and pensions. Both, of which I'll hazard to guess, they paid for themselves through their company savings plans, union pension plans, 401Ks, and through years of working and paying into the system.
Whereas the illegal populace has not paid into the social security system, yet they are drawing on the funds that rightfully should go to the American workers and taxpayers.
Therein lies the difference in the dollars.

Also, we don't require illegals to learn English in this country. Does the Costa Rican government require everyone learn Spanish? I doubt it.

As far as Mass being spoken in English, check out Immaculate Conception church in Salem. The Hispanic community requested a spanish mass, and they got one.
Prior to the closing of St. Joseph church in Salem, St. Joseph was the church where the Hispanic community went because they had a spanish speaking priest, again, requested by the Hispanic community. In fact, during major Catholic holidays, some masses were combined and both English and Spanish was spoken, to bring both communities together.

So I fail to see your point.

:-)

Why are these retirees "scrambling" to leave?
Could it be because the cost of living in the U.S. is becoming so expensive retirees cannot afford to live on their pensions and social security income alone?

Now, why do you suppose that is???????????

duh....

Mr. Cook - The intent of my speaking up was and is my American given right. I am going to do the same again by asking you if you would be willing to give up half your retirement money to live in your Costa Rican home. That is so we who live here can live a little better by your helping to lower our costs of living . You may allude to that you worked for the money but you appear to be self thinking only. Our country and its people are in crisis because of all the money being spent in other countries and causes. To take our"gold" overseas to help people is one thing when they are in crisis but you seem to forget about the rest of us who helped build your right to have freedom to chose where you live. I don't mind if you live anywhere but I do when it comes to Americans you leave behind living in or near the poverty levels. I choose to stay in my country because I 'd rather do so for so many reasons ,among them personal ones. I wouldn't want to live in fear behind gated communities or have to carry weapons to go from place to place in Costa Rica or any other country where most of their populations are living in poverty . Is there any wonder why foreign people hate us Americans when anyone living there do not want to learn their language and flaunt the wealth they think we average Americans have. Thats a reversal of what we here are complaining about . It may seem I'm envious of you but I am not because I am one who will stand by firmly and help the best way I can to make this country great again amongst the nations of the world . Have you considered doing the same? That is why I ask if you are willing to accept half of the money in your retirement checks that you spend outside the country . Where is your caring for the Americans that gave you the freedom to live else where on their backs facing bad times here? You can answer but I won't return any further answers because I do not want to fight with you because I do expect you will be very defensive of my right to have spoken out as I have about the issues that I have.

Harry, how immigrants do you Really know that you feel morally justified in making a statement like "What I do mind is the attitude that most new comers have is that they are owed every thing once here" . The illegals I have had interaction with over the last 20 years or so (rat take notice) whether they are on my roof, pumping my gas or and standing outside Home Depot morning after freezing morning are too meek and still to proud to beg for handouts. It is very doubtful that your views are based on anything more substantial that the rantings of some over paid TV or radio personnality, and if that is the case shame on you for casting such a stone.

Now back to the Bullhorn-

Rat, your final question, "So where do you get off lecturing us?" begs for clarification, what qualification do you think I need to speak up on this subject, you are saying is that I am not quite American enough to have an opinion, right? I am foregin so why don't I go back to where I came from and look to the problems there? Is that it? Is the true test whether you are really American or not is whether you happen to be born on this land? Some one who chooses to be here doesn't qualify? True colors rat, true colors (or would you rather I say colours, eh?)

Immragtion probelms in Ireland, poohy, yeah I have done a 'little' research into the immigration debate in Ireland also, mostly by talking to friends and family there and when I am confronted with it I consistently point out the hypocrisy of Ireland, above all places, being hostile to immigrants. Really come on, Ireland?

I came here for adventure Rat, the world is a big place and I was eager to explore it and believed that no goverment should be able to tell me that I can't, surely that is something we can agree on? So yes congradulate me for not accepting tryanny, and for taking on the responcibility of improving my lot in life.

Gald to read you Michael, keep trying to turn down the volume and turn up the inteligence

Seamus, you are shameless....
In keeping with you and your ilk, you dodge the legal immigration point simply because it fits your personal and political agenda. I never said anything about being born in this country. Go back to my post, and read it slowly.

As I stated earlier, there is nothing wrong with LEGAL immigration. So how many of our other laws have you chosen to ignore because you don't feel like they should apply to you? Please, feel free, pick and choose whatever other laws you feel like ignoring, you have the backing of the democrats, anyways....

As far as the poor, downtrodden, meek, hard working illegals being too proud to accept "handouts", check out your local hospital emergency room. The handouts the illegals are receiving are not only monetary...

Bilge Rat , I couldn't agree more with what you've said to Seamus . The example of emergency rooms are only one thing and there are many more. - - Seamus, I can say what you quoted me on. I spent more than an hour waiting for my turn in the Haverhill , Mass. S.S. office to be seen. There amongst us all were two immigrants talking and complaining about the money they were going to get and the wait to be seen. They kept it up with their complaining about the things they were entitled to and finally I spoke up and in a very controlled nice way I told them if they didn't like their present situation to leave and let us do our business. The security guard stepped in before they could protest any further. Let me ask without your possible infuriation , are you now a citizen of the United States ? If not then you're one who should be more respectful of your status here . Again, if you aren't a citizen then you should be quite and in the back round , so to speak, until you do become one. Oh !! and by the way , I do know immigrants that work instead of holding their hands out for things . My grand parents were among these of today when they came to this country before w.w. 2 and they stayed here as did their children and made good citizens of themselves. I hope you will as well.

OK Seamus and Bilge rat,
Chill out a bit.
You both have very valid points.
BR is right that people should not come here illegally.
But the fact of the matter is, people have been coming here illegally since the country was founded.
remember,the acronym "WOP" to describe many Italian immigrants? it stood for Without Papers.
Seamus, I agree with your assertion that the vast majority of immigrants, whether documented or not, are hard working people just looking for a better life for themselves and their families.
BR, your assetion about illegals and emergency rooms intrigued me. It came on the heels of a letter to the editor in the Tibune owned Daily Snooze of Newburyport.
In that letter, the author claimed eight five county owned hospitals in california were forced to close because of the "direct impact" of uninsured illegals receiving uncompenated care.
So, being the former social worker and freelance writer that I am, I did some digging.
It is true that many border area, county run, public hospitals in california and throughout the south west are closing their doors, as they are in many parts of the country.
But, according to a joint Hospital Association of America and Government Accounting Office study, it is not because of illegal immigrants draining the public hospital system in those locales.
In fact, only about 25% of those facilities' uncompensated expenses could be attributed to illegal aliens. 75% of those uncompensated expenses were attributable to native born Americans and immigrants here legally having no access to health insurance.
Today's economy, especially in the service and hospitality industries, cannot survive without immigrant labor, whether its is documented or not.
All one need do is look to the panic Cape Cod hoteliers, B&B owners, and restauranteurs are are living with since, for often bogus reasons of national security and this anti-immigrant nonsense, it was announced the guest worker visa program that allowed workers fom jamaica and Eastern europe to come for the summer season to bus the tables, clean the toilets, and change the sheets of affluent American tourists playing on Patty Page's old cape Cod, is going to be drastically restricted.
I work in the hospitality industry on the Outer cape as a waiter in the summer to fund the maintenance of my little cabina, and I do mean little, in the rainforest. The only reason I can work there and have it be financially feasible, even though I make what some would consider good money, is because I have a long standing relationship with a friend who rents a beautiful room to me for a fraction of what he could get for it in the open rental market.
There will be no workers this summer to do those lower end hospitality jobs thanks to, and sorry Bilge rat, bigotry, xenophobia, and plain, old fashioned fear.
The economy of the Outer Cape cannot function, anymore than than the nation's can, without immigrant labor.
And this summer on Cape Cod is going to drive that point home for all to see in a very, very painful way.
So, come on guys. Let's all lighten up a bit. After all, unless one of us is filthy rich and can stand apart from all the rest of us, we are , even when we disagree on some of the fine points, all in this together.

Michael never apologize for calling out bigotry and xenophobia,

Harry you realize that the people you were talking about are legal immigrants, otherwise they would not be in the social security office. The answer to your question is yes, can I come out from the shadows now and when were your grandparents allowed to.

Rat, I am shameless, but I am honest, they tend to cancel each other out. Now honestly how many ERs have you spent time in and were you issued some sort or decoding device to tell who were the legal and who were the illegal? Or is it the bullhorn that you were listening to? Someone is stealing your inheritance Rat but it is not Jose from Mexico or Huang from Cambodia. Tax cuts for the rich will benefit us all right? In answer to questions about picking and choosing laws, well I speed sometimes, don't drink and drive anymore and taxes.. what about you. And you didn't but you did, didn't you.

The first line I wrote here was that this frenzy about illegal immigration is a farce, the point of our back and forth. It is a farce, the latest to keep us worked up.

In the end, I am honest enough to say that a Laotian family moving in next door would cause me alarm, but happy to know that I would question that feeling, I hope you can all say the same.

Seamus, I'm glad you can say your out of the shadows . My Grandparents [all four] came out of the shadows when they became citizens. In answer to the S.S. office incident I agree that they had to be or were supposed to be legal immigrants. It doesn't mean that they truly were as you can probably agree to if you read the papers and see what some immy/gimmees are doing indentity wise . I want to say that we do agree to disagree in some areas but the intent is to try an make things mutually better for us all. I think before we go any further with our gripes we have to stop or be barred from the soap box by the paper. It shouldn't be all about us making comments only and there hasn't been more than the four of us in this confrontational issue that I do think is getting out of hand. I appreciate and thank all involved here for there thoughts and opinions that we shared however viewed as.

So, Mr. Birmingham, now you're advocating for censorship. How VERY democratic and "American" of you!

Michael , I am not an advocate of or for censorship and I do say ,yes, I'm very American. Without your answering I ask what you are...If you are you are as you say you are you would be willing to give others the chance to come forward and view their opinions . It is pretty obvious to me there isn't any more than us four in this debate of opinions. All you seem to be doing is furthering a debate with a want for a fight. How un AMERICAN of you ,SIR!! Give it up -- no on e else is joining we four in this exchange of opinions.

Mr. Birmingham,
Are you really as illiterate as your postings suggest?

Michael , If being illiterate is knowing when to give up as my last message said then what are you? You just do not seem to get the hint . Its been hours since the message was sent and I don't see any reaction statements from the other two people we exchanged opinions with. Maybe we three are all illiterate as you claim me to be and your the all mighty brain we should bow down to and do your wishful bidding. Stop beating the dead horse, it just isn't going to get up.

There goes the name calling again, "xenophobe" and "bigot", by none other than our favorite former illegal on this blog, Seamus. I could think of a couple of choice names to throw out towards you and your position, but decorum, respect, and the way I was raised will prevent me from doing so.

Seamus, you seem to be an intelligent individual, why are you reverting to the name calling tactic?

Once again, when confronted with an opinion different than one's own, the petulance, childish behavior sets in.

BTW, you still have not answered my original question.....
:-)

Rat, come on now, the bullhorn doesn't work here.

As I mentioned before one should never apologize for calling out xenophobia and bigotry where it’s seen, you would agree with that right. You kinda have to in todays world even if you don't believe it.

And Michael, take Harry on the basis of what he says not how he says it.

Harrys take on the SS office is Xenophobic; the idea that the government is being hoodwinked by illegals is ridiculous. Two people were talking loudly about they were in entitled as citizens, but with foreign accents which, this provoked a reaction in Harry. Xenophobia 101.

And you, Rat, the ERs are being over run with illegals, and how do you know, well just listen to them, right? Since you didn't answer my question I'll split the difference with you, you do spend a lot of time in ERs (plausible) but you don't have that decoding device (to sci-fi-ish) so i have to believe that you are using your keen ghuman senses. I am showing my intelligence again right, thanks for noticing btw.

Again would you welcome a legal Guatemalan family into your neighborhood? Or would you even stop yourself from complaining to your other neighbors about it? Answer that question honestly and then maybe your concern about the "law breaking illegals" can taken as just that.

By the way Rat, if some said to me "So where do you get off lecturing us?" could I say "Once again, when confronted with an opinion different than one’s own, the petulance, childish behavior sets in."

Answer your original question, well lets see I said yeah congratulate me, then there was I came here for adventure, are we back to the "So where do you get off lecturing us"?

Seamus, have you actually read and comprehended what I have written???? Please read the following verrrry slowly, Seamus......

I SUPPORT LEGAL IMMIGRATION...

Now slowly repeat it until it sinks in....

Is that clear enough for you????

If a LEGAL Guatemalan family moved into my neighborhood, then I would welcome them with open arms, as would my neighbors...

'Nuff said.....

I will no longer feed or support the troll....
I'm done....
:-)

To Bilge Rat and any other sensible thinking person , To say I'm xenophobic is Just to insulting coming from someone of Seamus and the "brain", Michael , ways of thinking ,etc.. When one admits to having been an illegal and the other saying he is a citizen who lives part time in Costa Rica and can say what they have I leave it up to the reader to decide if I'm right or wrong about not wanting to go further . All one has to do is read the previous writings of all here on the subject, especially paying attention to their ways of writing, of ours as well to see why I feel as I do . And while your at it go to all the other soapbox subjects to see how these individuals think through their writings. I maybe an " illiterate " older man now but I do have the thinking of one who has experienced more than some having been brought up less than rich or average in my younger years. I didn't live on the beach next to the Rogers family with admitted disdain for them due to the things the Eagle Tribune wrote. I did live in a wonderful average home with great parents and was brought up to be kind to others which isn't what has happened here with the critical writings given me and others by the writings of some here. Like I said prior you can't continue to beat an already dead horse and expect it to get up. Now do you understand why I've decided even more so now than what I did say previously about just three of us being involved in the issue with the "brain" taking control ? Thank you.

May GOD bless you, Mr. Birmingham.

Thanks, Harry.
Keep the faith!
;-)

To Mr. Carlson and Bilge Rat , I thank you for your blessings and the faith spoken about and I do appreciate and will remember it . I maybe a Crankshaft type of character [comic sections of many papers] but I feel my past experiences ,as much as other peoples , should be expressed and passed on ,hopefully, for the betterment of those who will follow as time goes on after we three are long gone. I don't want to seem so down in saying that but as one gets older they do look back and say where did we go wrong and what can we do to remedy those things. Thanks again, guys you made my day and keep on with your well intentioned commentaries.!

Hey Bilge Rat , I just read the post " Divide the people and raise taxes " . Mike said its costing more to live there now. When he bought his place it cost 6300 dollars and now its worth in excess of 100,000 dollars. I can see it now!! He sells it off and brings the "gold" back to the U.S. thereby helping to cure our economic woes and he probably will never have to bus tables again . Maybe will buy a second home and live on some beach front property to hob nob with the rich and famous with the left over dollars he brings back with him!! I couldn't resist the comedic tease here but I think I finally got my past point across in doing it.

Hey Bilge rat and Mr. Carlson,
I love how you guys claim you're not in the personal assassination mode. But that's just what you do when someone dares to stand up to you.
Bilge rat, when I winked at you CR comment, I then went on to say how frustrating it is that "development" is destroying the very things that made Costa Rica so desirable in the first place.
Then Birmingham, who's posts reveal time and again the poor sap is functionally illerate, starts saying I'm going to bring my WEALTH, back from Costa Rica and live like king here.

Guys, I'm just a working stiff trying to figure it out too.

Just because I had the balls to take a risk and buy property in Costa Rica before CR became hip and trendy doesn't mean I still don't care about the US

Mike , I did say MAYBE you'll bring back the "gold" to spend here. After all you were the one who said it was getting to be expensive to live there. Remember that Dorthy said there is no place like home ,there is no place like home!! You have called me a non functioning illerate when you can't seem to absorb and understand what was written in the American english I and others can and do understand. Why don't you "take the time to figure it all out " some time soon in regards to what I wrote. No one that I know of said that you don't care about the U.S. You do have ,as you said , balls but I am starting to wonder if they are rolling around in your head rather than in your daringness to be the adventurous investor person you said and have stated you are. Now how illiterate am I?

Happy Monday, All!

Michael, when was I in "personal assassination mode"?

I've always tried to keep my posts free from personal denigrations against other posters here.....

If you're talking about the exchange with Seamus, I believe he began using the adjectival noun crusade, hence the troll post....

From Google-
troll:A troll is a user of a newsgroup, forum or message board that posts messages with the intent of inciting an argument or flame-war

We need some fresh topics, these are getting quite stale....
:-(

Bilge Rat , I have to agree with your fresh topics, these are getting stale thinking. The Soapbox does appear to be as limited to four or five of us writing opinions about anything that becomes a topic. The attacks on one another aren't helping any to bring more people into answering the topics . I'd have to say it scares them away in fear of being reprimanded for their written opinions . I'll be the first one to admit that I'm as guilty as any or everyone else here for being defensive in the attacks on me and the replies I've made to them. My want to avoid these things from happening again is to ignore them as best I can. I would be in hopes everyone can respect the right to give any opinion they want without the name calling and degrading comments made by some to others. I may not be as articulate as some or write as well as some but I do have my right to express my opinions as do all here on the Soapbox.

An illegal immigrant is someone who missed there plane home or overstayed a visa and came here leagally. A criminal is someone who was smuggled here sneaked in. So we have all these criminals stealing our wealth, dragging down our schools, Destroying our neighborhoods, Using our hospitals, Using our social security, Drving cars unregistered, Making companies like WM come and survive, While driving up the cost of fuel education and health care and taking away the america our founding fathers and depression and warld war two generation faught long and hard for. If we dont stop illegals and the invasion of foreigh crime all the people who died in world war two died in vein. While people like john Tierney are draft dodgers and wont resign.