RallyNorth.net: High School Sports – Merrimack Valley and Southern NH

Hector, I agree that the MIAA's decision to go with 3 officials for state tournament games is horrible…only because they don't do it all year. What happens is gross inconsistencies. Officials go to 3 man mechanics camps in the summer and fall and don't get to use what they learn until March unless they are working college games. That is the bigger problem. If you don't use it, you lose it. I talk to officials from all over the country and they balk that MA does not use three officials all season to begin with.

That being said, if a kid fouls, he fouls. That is the kids deciding the game, not the officials. If the officials are NOT calling fouls, then the officials are deciding the game.

Hec, I have to ask, have you ever officiated at any level? If not, I highly recommend you take the IAABO course offered each fall at NAHS. You will learn more than you ever thought you knew about hoops and after the floor exam you will get a lot of feedback about officiating from many of the best in the area.

Hector, thought it was only parents that complained about the reffing? Since when does a sports writer wine like a baby? Leave it to us parents, believe me, we are good at it. In general the only complaint I ever have is about the offensive call that is called way too much.

For the record, I don't “wine” like a baby. I whine like a fan of good hoops, who wants to see everybody's kid get a fair shake.
I have taken the course in college and actually tried to ref intramurals, failing miserably. I don't want the job, I don't care for it.
And I'm still waiting for one official out there to explain to me why the best kids are treated the harshest out there.
I totally agree, that if a kid fouls he fouls. But in a game, there are 25 calls that are 50/50 … foul or no foul, off black or off white, block/charge … My main gripe is when three straight 50/50 calls go against the best kid on the floor, when he probably deserves the benefit of the doubt, and it changes a game.
Finally, NO PARENT EVER HAS THE RIGHT TO SCREAM AT OFFICIALS LIKE YOU ALL DO!!!!!!
YOU ARE ALL DEHUMANIZING THEM AND DISRESPECTING THEM.
Your kids see it and learn from you. Bad enough they have the NBA guys begging (Garnett) and whining (Perkins) and Rasheeding (no explanation needed) every play.
Shut your mouths in the stands. Say it to your buddies, voice your anger to the guy sitting next to you.
But screaming “3 SECONDS!!!!!!!” over and over does nothing but enflame your child and disrespect a fellow human being .. .or in last night's case 3 of them.

And your lucky in NH. They play with 2 officials.

the_other_side, Great blog you posted, I'm with you. I understand what Hector is saying, but I don't agree.

Hector, You captured the concensus of people at the game. Three fouls on Carson and two on Jimmy were bogus. As a former official I can say that a previous poster had it exactly right: The mechanics are just different. And I really think that some officials believe that people are there for the opportunity to watch them officiate, so they interject themselves into flow of the game. The official who sprinted across the court last night to scold Coach Nault had no business doing that. It was petty and unneccessary. One NN parent behind me yelled “Let the kids play” after a foul on Carson.

All that said, CC allowd NN to come back from a 12-point deficit at halftime. It also seemed to me that the officials let the kids play much more in the fourth quarter, when Carson had a couple of big blocks. Yes, if Kelley doesn't foul out, who knows. But if Jimmy and Carson aren't forced to sit for big stretches who knows what that results in, too. And finally, I say again, give me five Luis Puellos and I'll go play anybody. Does anyone work harder on the glass? Can anyone remember a bigger SJjP-CC game? And Hec, when is the last time SJP beat Central?

Hector – I am honored that you included me in your initial post after the CCHS win at the Comcast. I won't even comment on the game or how it was called, because I was not there – instead I worked a great game in Waltham and then went home to cook dinner and enjoy a nice quiet evening.

Much to my chagrin though, I wake up to this argument again. I say chagrin, because you have no basis for using me in your argument against the 3-man crews when you include the statement about the money and checks. That's a low blow and you are better that that Hector. You obviously don't know me at all as a professional or as a person to make that statement.

As a college and high school official, you're right, I am a strong advocate for 3-man crews. I do agree that it should be done all year long also – just like other states have adopted. And yes folks, NH does do it also but much later on in their tournament. I also agree that when you have a 3-man crew, it is imperative that everyone be on the same page right from the start and unfortunately some of the games you are seeing and some you will see over the next few weeks will be an issue of the crew not being on the same page. I agree, that is a problem.

I agree with an earlier post though, the kids do foul, and they clutch and grab, and they bump cutters and set illegal screens. A lot of which is not called with a 2-man crew. And when it is not called we hear the screaming and when it is called we hear the screaming. So what's the answer?

People are there to see kids like Jimmy and CD play as well as Bramanti and O'Connell – BUT if they foul – they foul! Are you suggesting that a referee doesn't call a foul or worse gives it to another player if a guy cuts through the middle of the paint and CD, who already has two fouls on him, (and the ref should know that by the way) chucks him and knocks him off his cut to the hoop? That's not how it works Hec and not how it is going to work at the next level either. The NBA – yes, that will work.

Block/Charges – they can be 50/50 calls, but if you referee the defense they really are quite simple.

Anyway, I enjoy the debate I really do, but Hector let's share a beer sometime and discuss the finer points of officiating, instead of you taking a swipe at my integrity when you don't even know me or what I stand for as a person.

33 points 31 rebounds that is just insane…think about that-31 rebounds?? Wow is right Hector.

Need LP to keep playing like that through the tourney-he can create nightmares for coaches who dream to stop CD & JZ.
Lets take care of business on Wed night-rumor has it the CC students have something cooking for the final home regular season game.

Redstorm, I'd genuinely like your opinion on the following. Having watched many, many Central games it seems that both Carson and Jimmy (but especially Carson) are just manhandled under the basket. Grabs, pulls, elbows, two-handers, you name it. But because they're big, strong kids they don't fall down or get shoved aside the way a smaller kid would, and hence no fouls are called. My point is that a kid shouldn't be penalized for being big. I've seen games that are 32 minute rugby matches and Carson goes to the line twice in 28 minutes becasue stuff is simply not called. I truly believe that, had a two-man MVC crew done the game last night, neither Jimmy, Carson, nor Kelley would have been in foul trouble. Thoughts?

I agree with you and it is something that needs to be called in the tournament better than it has been. Guilty as charged.

On that same thought though – Luis does play great defense, but there have been occassions this year when his good defense included some clutching and grabbing and hand checking.

I can't speak about the crew last night or the game itself but I do know all three officials. Enough said.

Not to get too far off of the topic of Hector's original post (CCHS' win at the Comcast)…

I think the MIAA and local IAABO boards should work together and create a system where by all varsity and jv games are worked with three man crews. Allow the freshman games to be two man games. This makes a lot of sense (to me) on a lot of levels.

1. Three man crews open up varsity opportunities to more officials. I have seen so many worthy officials passed over because of the politics that exists with several assignors.

2. Having 3 many jv games allows the younger officials to refine their 3 man mechanics for a few years and prepares them for advancement to varsity and eventually state tournament levels rather than going to a singular camp one summer, some time, somewhere and never using it until a high stakes game.

3. While it may eliminate the officiating of frosh/jv doubleheaders, it could allow for certain leagues to adopt the early frosh doubleheader that some already employ. It allows new officials the chance to opportunity to get two games under their belt and perhaps be observed and discuss with a mentor official between games some things to work on before the next game and then have a follow up after the two games.

BINGO!!

That's the answer. Before I get accused again of wanting three man crews because of the money I want to agree with you that his best for the game in the long run.

I also agree that there are more officials out there that should get an opportunity to refine their craft and move up to the next level. When I was coming up through the ranks, a very long time ago I guess, I would do a JV or Frosh game and they stay around to watch the Varsity game – every time. I wanted to hear what the veterans had to say and gat any info I could from them. That's why I still considered some of them my mentors still – guys like Boots, Joe Dorazio, Larry Cavanaugh Sr, and Larry McIntire.

A lot of newer officials today though, do love the game of basketball, but they also like the opportunity to work those doubleheaders for the buck and could care less about advancing to the Varisty level. I have had conversations with guys that say, “hey, why not, I'm dooing two games, getting a run in, and I am home by 7:30 pm. I don't have to deal with a ll the crap that comes along with reffing a MVC boys game night in and night out.”

Thise are the facts unfortunately, but I do commend you on your post because you are right on.

Yeah, the checks thing was a cheapshot, and it wasn't directed toward any one person, just the philosophy.
I will stand by my premise that every official makes the stars work harder around here, I don't know why.
They did it to Chris Vetrano … who had to be tackled on a drive to get a whistle, they did the same thing to Alex Oviedo, and I'm not even going to broach the Jonathan Cruz subject, that kid probably could have sued.
Maybe you guys can't handle the top talented kids. Maybe what a Carson does or an Oviedo did was too much for the average Valley ref.
The three guys last night didn't call too many fouls. Look at the free throws, they were low. At one point there were five fouls on CC … Two on Carson (one of which was legit) and three on Zenevitch (1 which was a foul, 1 which was clearly blown and one which was a coin flip call or no-call).
And just to assure you that I am not playing the role of a homer, I will reiterate that the two atrocious calls on Greg Kelley of Newton North in the fourth quarter cost them a tourney title.
Plain and simple.

Redstorm, what do you mean about refereeing the defense for a charge? Please explain. I am curious to know

Why not blow the whistle when he holds and grabs?
To me, it's that simple. You blow the whistle, he stops.
Maybe not that night, but the next one and the one after that.
When Carson is getting mugged on the post, clean it up. Hasn't that been a point of emphasis the last 20 years or so, cleaning up post play.
One hint, when the defender's hand is inside his jersey, it's a foul.
Again, I'll say this. The officials try hard, 95 percent of them work at their craft, and people are totally unfair when they openly bash them at games.
That's the one thing that should be heavily policed and school administrators turn away and hide.
Call the hand checks. T up the coaches when they throw their tantrums, nip it quickly, forget the tired old “I've heard enough” because by then it's already too late, don't go looking to light kids up, just officiate and the games will be much better.
Again, watch the officials in NH and how they handle a guy like E.J. Perry, who is an absolute gentleman in the Granite State on the sidelines.
Perry knows better up there, and you know what, his teams have been better for it, for years now.
Just check out the banners on his wall.
Every basketball official and varsity hoop coach should go to a volleyball match together to see how coaches and officials are supposed to get along.

I think you've hit on something here too. You get too many varsity MVC guys taking frosh 3:30 or 4:45 games and then doing a varsity game later in the night. They get their quick $50 and get out. I was in a locker room before a JV boys game at Andover a few years back and the crew doing the freshman boys game was a varsity guy and a rookie. The new kid was looking for some feedback but the varsity ref took off because he had a varsity game at Haverhill that night and needed to get something to eat first. Not even a “hey, give me a call tonight.” Way to help out the new guys.

It will be interesting to see how things are called in the tournament. Some of the guys who work the MVC see Carson et al 3 or 4 times and, to me, start to see the mugging as 'part of the game'. Especially if they've been doing Central's games for the last four years. As teams attempt to collapse and things become increasingly physical inside, let's see if Carson needs to press charges.

The same thing applies to LP as officials get used to it. But the bumps typically don't alter the flow of the guy with the ball and, hence, no call.

When we discuss or advise newer officials on calling the block/charge we say referee the defense and you'll have a better shot at getting it right.

If you think about a typical block/charge situation it is usually a guy driving to the rim and blasting a defensive player, right? the first question is, did the defensive player have position or not? Did he/she get there after the offensive player left the floor or was he/she there already? If the official “referees the defense” on that play and picks up whether they were in legal guarding position or not, they will get the call right more of the time.

When we discuss or advise newer officials on calling the block/charge we say referee the defense and you'll have a better shot at getting it right.

If you think about a typical block/charge situation it is usually a guy driving to the rim and blasting a defensive player, right? the first question is, did the defensive player have position or not? Did he/she get there after the offensive player left the floor or was he/she there already? If the official “referees the defense” on that play and picks up whether they were in legal guarding position or not, they will get the call right more of the time.

I can't comment on this any further. We don't agree and probably never will, but that's okay. I equate it to my not being a coach so I cannot put myslef in there shoes with all the politics, parents, and drama they have to deal with.

But when fans of the game suggest it is as easy as just “blow the whistle, and call the hand checks, T up the coaches” – but don't do it to the stars or the legendary coaches – is just not how it is.

When I hear stuff like this – it drives me crazy! The kid deserves better than that and I would NEVER do that. I got into and styed in this crazy avocation because of my grandfather – a former official and umpire, the love of the game, and the veterans who took time to mentor me. I give back whenever I can and so do my closest friends in the business.

“Again, I'll say this. The officials try hard, 95 percent of them work at their craft, and people are totally unfair when they openly bash them at games.
That's the one thing that should be heavily policed and school administrators turn away and hide.”

It's wrong to bash officials at a game but ok to do it in the media? You don't think you are fueling the fire? You write about these local players as if they are gods. The game is based on rules and officiated accordingly. Yes, most veteran officials are aware of better players and do try to keep them on the floor, however, chasing these exceptional athletes all over the court and making instant decisions (no spell check for them) is not easy.

It is wrong for you to write about it so frequently and coach's like Tildsey to blame losses on it publically. When is the last time you wrote about one of these stars missing too many shots, making an ill-advised foul or getting toasted on defense? When is the last time you wrote about a coach being out-coached or possibly making a poor decision?

Please don't fuel the fire, respect all involved (players, coach's & officials) and most importantly … enjoy the game. This is after all, what it is, high school sports.

Hey “fan” – now why didn't i think of that sooner?!? That was perfectly said.

That would be like me coming out here and bashing one of the coaches for playing a certain defense or chastising CD for not dunking a ball when he had the chance to send a message.

Thanks for the support.

fan, Great blog you posted. I'm with you. redstorm8, You are going to go on all day about what is right and what is wrong. I think everything you have posted here is right on and really like seeing the other side. Again, redstorm8, great blogs you have posted. fan, redstorm8 and the_other_side, great stuff you guy's are hitting it right on.

Two giant clarifications here:
1. The athletes are kids. Nobody should criticize them. They are not adults, holding the schools ransom for exorbitant officiating fees, then conning the MIAA into an incredibly ludicrous notion that three officials will do a better job than two. When you cash a check, you are subject to constructive criticism, not nasty bashing at games but intelligent, constructive criticism.
I don't see what I do as fueling the fire. I see it as pointing out gross wrongs in the system, namely an era of budget cuts and layoffs and schools slashing budgets yet the need for three officials.
I know, that extra $60, $70, $80 won't make a difference, right?
Tell that to the kid at Triton who had to pay $800 to play football two seasons ago.
Or to the kid in Haverhill, who can't wrestle because of the $250 user fees.

2. The coaches have been strafed repeatedly here and in our newspaper, not necessarily for their strategies (although at times it happens) but for their behavior. How many “raging coach” photos have you seen in the Eagle-Tribune? Gobs of them.
Go back and look at this blog.

You know you guys kill me. This, “there are officials out there that do it for the money but I'm not one of them” argument is growing tired.
Stormy, you're not one of them, and the next guy isn't one of them, and the next guy, but they're out there, and so are the guys who want to be part of the show.

Stormy, you're grabbing allies in the wrong places, and Fan your lament is laughable.
The kids aren't “gods?”
Who said they were?
Go work a JV blog, this is strictly varsity stuff here at the Creature.
The truth hurts, so the only defense you're left with is to attack me. It's such a weak argument.
You're right, without me, idiotic fans wouldn't be losing their minds attacking refs at games. Who knew I was the cause of all this rage?
I had no idea of the impact on this blog. We'd better look to pump up the ad rates because the gospel according to the Bleacher Creature is raging.

I am not attacking you at all – but it is a blog and I will defend what I do know. What you don't know is me or the guys I work with night in and night out, Hector. I have a well paying job and I do it well and because UI like to do it, I referee basketball. For you to come out here and make a blanket statement and attach it to anyone person who you dn't know is wrong. It's not Varisty Stuff at all. The day I ref just for the money and just for added check next week during the tourney is the day I get out.

And why is it that basketball gets nailed in this extra official argument all of the time? Does it happen in football or soccer or baseball? I am more curious than anything because I don't know the answer and don't follow them much in the paper or the blog.

Nope – not going to go on all day. Appreciate the feedback though.

Stormy, more to the point, you're a Valley ref. Speak for your brethren. I'm disappointed that you chose to hide behind Fan. Address the issue. Why have you guys not taken control of all the garbage?
I'll provide the answer: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Cash and the spotlight.
You're all petrified that you hurt somebody's feelings and you get knocked off the state tourney list. Listen here Fan because I'm knocking the coaches, something you said I don't do.
They are allowed to run amok because of it and if anything it is what insights the craziness.

I'm not interested in debating officials fees. Varsity officials would make more money in youth tripleheaders or frosh/jv doubles if that is what inspires them.
However, using your theory of players being off limits and officials fair game because they get paid “exorbitant officiating fees” (big word), why not critique coaching strategy? Why not mention their salaries and pension padding or the Andover “Hooptown” cash cow? Do some investigating journalism on those topics.
You can attack officials but clearly do not appreciate the return. If you understood my point, it was simple, spare all of it and just enjoy the game for what it is.

What's the difference between 5-6 refs in football? I have no idea. But you know what, I say go with five.
Baseball uses two umpires all the time. When they go to three, it's to reward you hard-working officials with an extra check in the tournament. No need there, and again, no impact.
Soccer, I haven't the slightest.
Why the need in basketball, just answer me that? If we can play the whole season with 2, why the need?
More control? Not on your life.

Actually I'm not a “Valley” ref. I work more college games than I do high school and I work more Cape Ann and NEC than I do MVC…

I don't hide behind the Fan – I just agree with what was said about how you bash the officials – you do it every year – at least once during the season and it always seems to focus on the same thing. It is far from constructive. I know this is a blog, but you are making this personal and that is not gospel or varsity stuff, nor is it factual.

Hurt someone's feelings…? Come on Hector – The minute one of us throws out Fazio or Paul Neal you will be an immediate apologist saying it was hasty or not warranted. As I said to david 1997 earlier – I am done – this is wrong.

the_other_side, redstorm8, fan, Don't back down from Hector. He's upset but, you guy's are right on and he is way off base. Hector if you do have any friends out there. They should tell you how wrong you are. Clam down. They see it the right way and you get that upset. Hector as a friend you are dead wrong.

Two is better than three.
My only point.
Greed is the lone reason for three, not a better product, not a safety issue, not better for the kids … WHICH TO ME IS ALL THAT MATTERS …
It's one more frivolous check at the taxpayers' expense.
Forget everything else, all the shots you made, all the shots I made,focus on these words only.
Two is better than three.
End of discussion.

Two is better than three.
My only point.
Greed is the lone reason for three, not a better product, not a safety issue, not better for the kids … WHICH TO ME IS ALL THAT MATTERS …
It's one more frivolous check at the taxpayers' expense.
Forget everything else, all the shots you made, all the shots I made,focus on these words only.
Two is better than three.
End of discussion.

I agree with Hec, you sound EXACTLY like every other official.

Greed on whose part Hector? Do you think that the basketball referees in this state said to the MIAA that it has to be three or else? To my knowledge, that didn't happen, unless of course you have uncovered some conspiracy whereby the high school referees in this state unionized and told the MIAA how they had to run their tournament. That was already attempted with the “handshake drama” a couple of years ago and as they say, how did that work out for us?

Tell them you only need two then.
Too easy to just blame the MIAA. And it was the volleyball officials who held out for more cash, not the hoop guys. So no, no conspiracy.
Unionize and tell them you'll only work in two man crews. Now that's a cause I'd back.

I miss the old, overweight Hector (or was it Overweight Luva' ?) That version was lovable and apathetic, albeit sleepy. This newer version is just plain venomous, albeit aerodynamic.

Okay – so next year when let's say the Christmas Tourney rolls around, why don't you tell the Sports Editor and your publisher that Muldoon can handle the tourney and there is no need for you to write about high school basketball that week. With the big man's literary prowess there is no need for extra writers/reporters/bloggers that week to really tell the story of the Christmas Tourney mystique.

I am not going to go to the MIAA and tell them how to run their tournament – especially when a good majority of the rest of the country is using three officials all of the time.

See now I just read your article on Donald Celestin…Why aren't you and why aren't we talking about that on this blog? That's good stuff Hector and the kid is a great kid. I hope he continues to get help and support – he deserves it. Coach Habib deserves a lot of credit and obvioulsy the folks at GLT are lucky to have him.

“I am not going to go to the MIAA and tell them how to run their tournament – especially when a good majority of the rest of the country is using three officials all of the time.”

Exactly, why are they using 3 most of the time? It isn't for game checks for their officials. It is because it makes a difference in the quality of the game. More court coverage, focusing on smaller areas of the floor, etc. You don't see it here because we only use in the tournament and the officials are not as prepared as they need to be use it.

About four years ago when this topic was brought up at an IAABO meeting, it was mentioned that if we go to three man crews, everyone would take a pay cut. We wouldn't three guys making $85 each. It would be three guys making more like $65 each (the numbers may be a little off but you should get the point).

You are correct, the_other_side. Currently officials get $75 for a Varsity game which is similar to other sports if I am not mistaken. And yes, I would expect that if they went to three person officaiting crews for the regular season, that there would be a decrease in the fee.

The Large Catholic Conference has been using three for about 4 or five years now I think. And they are paying a full fee for all three – which surprises me.

Anyway…
Saw he start time listed for St John's/ Central as 7PM (as opposed to the normal 7:30).
Does anyone know, is this accurate? Is there no JV game?
Being school vaca week, I'm wondering if it will keep the crowd size down. If it were not a vaca week, I would have guessed that St John's would have travelled well for such a game, and the Central crowd would be “Andover ish”.
Should be a good one…

Fan, CC website doesn't have a jv game, though it did last week. Someone probably figured it might be tough getting the younger kids to school during vaca. fyi, Central's jv team finished undefeated and many viewed it as their best jv team in years. The future looks bright, indeed, especially given that four frosh logged big minutes with the jv's seperate from Joel Boroa with the big fellas. I have to think the Central students will turn out in droves for the seniors' last regular season home game. Who covers Connaughton?? Hec, any recollection on SJP's last win in this game?

Game time is 7pm not 7:30.
Will be a good turnout-both teams want this win-St John's would looooove to beat CC.
More Central student section fun expected-hope Carson puts on good show for the last home reg season game.

Just in from SJP-CC. I'll interested in others' impressions here, but for me it was the best game of the year, in front of the best crowd of the year, with the best performance of the year (SJP's Connaughton), and easily the Shot of the Year (Jimmy from behind the backboard). Extraordinarily well-played game by both teams. Very good win for Central.

What a great game-I happened to be behind the Central team as they ran into the gym from the locker room and the roar from the crowd and the students going nuts was just insane. Every kid on either of those two teams will remember that game for a long time. Has to be close to- if not the best crowd I have seen at a game in a long long time. That is a big gym with lots of room and they were 4 deep in the balcony. Thought Louis played tough D as usual-he works harder than anyone else on the floor on the defensive end. The St Johns kid is the REAL DEAL-he has all the moves-very impressed by him. Carson was focused before the game and was monster blocking almost everything in that first quarter-he kept CC in it when the shots were not falling. I see a mental toughness that CC didn't have earlier in the season-they have made huge strides and are peaking at the right time.
Pairings out on Sat? can't wait to see who is in the CC bracket.